The LGBT lobby is concerned with championning the rights of lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgendered people. This much we know. Yet not all Catholics of a homosexual orientation are actively involved in the LGBT political movement.
There are a significant proportion of Catholics with a same sex attraction, we know that and heck, I know that. Some are active sexually, some are chaste, but not all Catholics, either active or chaste would place themselves in this political movement or campaign to champion the rights over which the LGBT lobby concern themselves.
On the other hand, some clearly do. Why? I would suggest that it is primarily because they are narcissists. There is a violent streak of narcissicism running through the arguments of Catholics who wish to make protest against either Church teaching or what they feel is prejudice against them, rooted in an inordinate desire for personal recognition. This is the case for the LGBT lobby on the whole and this is why the LGBT political movement within the Church should be seen as an infection, rather than a healthy movement for 'reforming the Church'. This self-love and desire for personal recognition in society and the Church, as well as the forging of a new identity grounded in sexuality alone is misguided and harmful to individuals, to society and, of course, to the Church.
Essentially, the campaign within the Church for recognition of LGBT rights is rooted in self-centredness and narcissicism. Even the mere idea of attending an LGBT Mass is inherently anti-Christian. It is closed, a club within the Church of men and women joined together not by their Faith in the Risen Christ, but by their sexual orientation and desire to see their interests given priority within the Church. Somehow, the Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is essentially self-sacrificial in teaching and 'other-centred', becomes distorted by sin, selfishness and self-love, to become a Gospel of personal liberation and personal recognition which is corporately divisive. By this I mean that it divides the Body of Christ, rather than unites it. These souls have lost a sense of personal sin and believe that instead of serving, they believe that they and their needs and 'rights' need to be served. It is the spirit of the Antichrist.
These souls who will be wearing 'rainbow sashes' at Westminster Cathedral make it painfully clear that their chief concern is themselves and that their interests come before anything else - even the interests of Holy Mother Church. Quite apart from the fact that they will be guilty in desecrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Blessed Sacrament, in making a visible protest during Mass, they have failed to see that the Gospel is less about championning our 'rights' and more about serving, praising and adoring God and serving the needs of our neighbour.
Furthermore, when asked the question, 'Who is my neighbour?' Our Blessed Lord made it clear that the poorest, the most abandoned, persecuted and vulnerable should be a primary concern of every follower of His. There have been times when homosexuals have been persecuted, often violently, harshly and unjustly so, but it can no longer be said that this is a poor, despised community who require the help of Christians. The gay lobby is in the ascendency in society, having achieved nearly every one of its goals and their goals are their only concern.
Our Lord said, "If any man should come after me let him take up his Cross daily and follow Me." In so doing Our Blessed Lord was making a call to self-denial for the love of Him. Brighton is a town in dire need of true Christianity and it is full of gay men, many of whom are very wealthy (and unhappy) because they do not have to spend money on children. The 'pink pound' is strong here. Hedonism and pleasure seeking is rife. There is, on the other hand, great poverty, stigmatisation and hounding of the homeless and drug addicts. These people are not treated with dignity by the authorities and are worthy of the help of Christians.
If a few of the gay bars became homeless hostels providing care and treatment for the homeless and drug addicted, then you would know that Brighton and Hove was a gay and Christian city indeed. That day, I am afraid, will never arrive, because those who involve themselves actively in the gay political movement are so self-absorbed that on the whole they make it clear that they only care about the interests of themselves and their associates. A Catholic active in the LGBT political movement is therefore guilty of the sin of omission since membership of that society is inherently exclusive of others. As Catholics we are called to love everyone and to give priority to the poor, persecuted and outcasts of society in whom Christ Himself is served. I am sorry, chaps and indeed chapesses, but gays no longer fit that bill.
Happy Pentecost all!
71 comments:
In the interests of Holy Mother Church Laurence, which you obviously hold as your greatest treasure and in the interests of the members of her Church who are faced with same sex attraction, it is important to state exactly what the Church teaches, and not our own opinions and what seems to me, a growing dislike in you, of active homosexuals, who we are commanded to love as ourself. Perhaps a personal testimony of your own struggles and the overcoming of them would be more beneficial spiritually to the souls you seek to reach with these posts. These people are not your enemies, they are children of God, created in His image, to know Him, and love Him and to be happy with Him, in this world and the next. That is the truth of Holy Mother Church. Let it be love motivating us, when speaking of the pearl beyond price that we hopefully have found in Holy Mother Church. The gospel of Jesus Christ is good news, not good advice.
Praying the Rosary is the best path to freedom I know, it is my experience, not my opinion. I battle with alcohol issues, but when I pray my rosary regularly, the battle belongs to some other power, grater than myself. That's more good news for anyone battling any person place or thing. Try it, full refund of problems if dissatisfied with results!
from the cathechism regarding same sex attraction...
• "The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual
tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively
disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be
accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity". (CCC, 2358)
• "All the baptized are called to chastity." (CCC, 2348) "Married people
are called to live conjugal chastity; others practice chastity in
continence." (CCC, 2349) "...tradition has always declared that
homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. Under no circumstance
can they be approved." (CCC, 2357)
• "By virtues of self-mastery that teach them [persons with same-sex
attraction] inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested
friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should
gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection." (CCC, 2359)
'to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him, in this world and the next'.
(sorry I missed out the serve bit first time round, I wanted to get y'all to sign on the dotted line first. :)
You have misunderstood the post. Neither I, a poor sinner, nor the Church has a problem with homosexuals or anyone with any attraction.
The Church has a problem with those who seek, through their activism in the LGBT community within the Church to undermine the Teaching of the Church and to campaign for their rights in isolation. To do so is a flagrant misunderstanding and distortion of the Gospel.
There is a distinct difference between these people. That is all I am saying.
Nothing in my post contradicts the Catechism of the Church.
Everything in your post contradicts the catecism of the catholic church.
You inflict an act of unjust discrimination against gay people by making wild accusations based on generalisations and stereotypes of gay people.
You are willing to tolerate gay people only if they pretend they are something which they are not, never to speak of their family circumstance, friendships, achievements or disappointments in life.
Doesn't sound very compassionate or welcoming to me. No wonder many peole are abandoning the church - it's because it's not very christian!
You speak of the gay lobby as if it only comprises of politically active gay individuals. In fact the gay lobby contains as many heterosexuals who support equal human and civil rights for gay people. They are the friends, family, parents and colleagues of gay people.
The concept of Narcissism as the root of same sex attraction is largely discredited. It was basically a freudian interpretation that is not given much credence anymore. Yes some gay people may be narcissistic but so can heterosexuals or individuals from any social group.
Much of the church's current difficulties reflects the clergy's narcissism, refusing to acknowledge the good in people who are different to them and demanding that all conform to their narrow view that people should reflect them because they believe they have all the answers.
A few months ago a gay man was murdered in Trafalgar Square waiting for a night bus minding his own business. He was stabbed by a young black man who cites his evangellical christian beliefs to justify his horrendous and unprovoked attack. Before the attack the young black man and friends had been shouting homophobic abuse to various gay people travelling around the area.
Laurence, why don't you speak out against these everyday homophobic attacks? Your answer is probably that the gay man deserved it because merely by his presence he was causing a public scandal which provoked his attacker.
Your poisonous views and actions serve to reinforce the prejudiced attitudes that foster such attacks. You are complicit and an accomplice to such evil and have committed a grave mortal sin. You have blood on your hands!
''You have misunderstood the post. Neither I, a poor sinner, nor the Church has a problem with homosexuals or anyone with any attraction.''
No Laurence my dear fellow, you have misunderstod the problem. You (and the church) clearly do have a problem with homosexuals and those with same sex attraction. A big part of the plank in your eye which prevents you from seeing the bigger picture is your personal issues accepting your sexuality. Similarly the church (whose clergy/religious contain a good proportion of men and women with same sex attraction) has the same issues. Please don't project your own trials and tribulations upon a whole strand of society.
The only reason many gay people speak ill of the church is because the church has taken an active stance in condemning them, as well as a proactive stance in advocating prejudice and discrimination against their human and civil rights.
Ask who threw the first stone, coz it wasn't gay people. They are simply defending themselves against the onslaught of attack coming instigated by the religious right. They have been forced to take a political stance to combat the unjust discrimination which they face in their everyday lives. Don't fool yourself that the religious right isn't political either, it is equally so and motivated by an evil ideology.
Your arguments bear an uncanny similarity to those being used by the Ugandan government who seek the death penalty for anyone suspected of being homosexual.
Since the lives of gay people in many parts of the world are still threatened, there clearly is need for a political gay lobby to campaign against these and other injustices.
Gay people are far from safe, even in this country there are regular instances of violence against gay individuals (often from people with the type of views which you align yourself to).
To be fair, it should read SOME members of the church because clearly not all members of the church support your evil perspective eg Cardinal Schoborn of Vienna or the former Cardinal Hume of Westminster.
Maybe the church should launch a moral heterosexual crusade against those divorced or seperated, those in unmarried relationships, those who are not chast outside marriage, those who contracept or have terminated their pregnancies.
Why doesn't the church speak out from their pulpits about these issues? Why not interogate all parishoners in order to ascertin information which can be used to deny them communion and exclude them from the community?
Relationships are complex and simplistic moral judgements are not helpful in these circumstances. There is always a context around how people end up in these irregular situations and it is not always clear that the individual is solely at fault. The moral teachings of the church must always be applied in a pastoral and sensitive manner taking into account each persnal circumstances on a case to case basis. The same is true of those individuals with same sex attraction (who may or may not be chaste and/or in relationships).
Cardinal Ratzinger authored the CDF's statement on homosexual persons which explicitly states that it may be morally permissable, indeed preferable, for some homosexual persons to enter into a same sex committed relationship (even if it is sexual)eg if the alternative is that the individual will engage in promiscuity.
When the church used to proclaim anti-semitic teachings, attacks on Jewish people followed. Ergo, the same is likely to occour towards gay people as a result of the twisted interpretation of catholic doctrine pushed forward into the public sphere by some of it's more extremist members.
The church hasn't got a good record in supporting human rights and extending the franchise. We understand that at the time, the church was blinded by the social conventions and thought of the time. Also it had a vested interest in maintaining the status-quo.
The same situation is true now with the human and civil rights of gay peoples. The teachings will be revised and updated in light of contmporary scientific and biblical knowledge and experience. There is more nuance to catholic teachings on this subject than you suggest and these openings pave the way to readdress the imbalance in the church's current interpretation of it's traditional teaching. I give it 5-10 years.
We thankfully do not live in a Catholic Fascist State. The church can believe what it wants but that doesn't give it the right to impose it's beliefs on society as a whole, or to deny human and civil rights to any section of it's citizenship.
Gay people pay taxes and therefore are entitled to equal civil and human rights.
If your views do not contradict the Catechism, why don't you submit your article to your local bishop for an nihil obstat imprimatur?
I think you would find that it would not be granted and your interpretation of catholic doctrine would be found seriously flawed in many respects!
Laurence, it is you who suffer from acute narcissicism, you think all gay people should be the same as you and are seriously flawed if they do not experience life the same is you. You attempt to place yourself in a morally superior position because of the choices you have made. Yet your choices (or social compliance?) has made you bitter and twisted which is not a pleasant personality trait.
Not every gay person wants to give up relationships or exclude themselves from the love of another. Indeed to do so would be to deprive themselves of their emotional needs to thrive as a whole person and experience the humanity that god gave us.
You seem to be bating the 'gay lobby' Laurence, do you really want gay demonstrations inside and outside your church?
You have the right to free speech but free speech carries moral responsibilities. Your rants are bordering on incitement of hatred and are certainly lacking in christian charity and tolerance.
Some of the things you espouse would not look good as qoutes painted on placards, be careful what you say because you are in danger of discrediting the church and causing public scandal to it's true teachings.
Sort out your own issues mate, then you can pass judgement on others.
God created all peoples equal... but some more equal than others.
Is this now official catholic church teaching Laurence?
laurence, it is said that you have never experienced the love and intimacy of another. Perhaps if you had experienced the love of god made real to us through our relationships, you might be able to recognise it in others.
Gay people should not be seen or heard within the church (unless they are wearing vestments), have you forgotten the cardinal rules of hypocrisy?
Banish yourself to a monastery dude, and live a life of shame and repentance for the sin of being born as you are.
A same sex scandal at the Brompton Oratory is developing. Four priests banished to a life of prayer in closed monasteries for an indefinate period. One priest who formed an unhealthy fixation on a 20 year old student candidate for the seminary. It's no secret many Oratorians are homosexually inclined (just like Newman himself) as is the case with many (if not most) traditionalist orders. Clearly dysfunctional, no?
''As Catholics we are called to love everyone and to give priority to the poor, persecuted and outcasts of society in whom Christ Himself is served.''
Yes and the above clearly includes gay people, many of which are poorer than the aveage in society, persecuted (not least by you!), and socially excluded from full and active citizenship.
A truly disgusting and depraved article, undeserving of attention. A real act of hate and spite.
Laurence, may Almighty God have mercy on your soul for you place yourself in a position of judgement upon other good people.
May he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
"As Catholics we are called to love everyone and to give priority to the poor, persecuted and outcasts of society in whom Christ Himself is served. I am sorry, chaps and indeed chapesses, but gays no longer fit that bill"
This is a silly idea - do you mean to say that the moment the campaign to prevent prejudice and persecution against a particular element of society become successful we ought to turn against those people and condemn them? You clearly imply this. If so, what is the point in campaigning in the first place? This really is (once again) a testament to your own sad and insecure mental state; you are happy to support people when they are weaker than you and can be looked down upon with pity, but the moment they no longer require your protection, you will turn on them with much malice.
Also, can I ask, what, for the love of God, is an “objective moral disorder” – you use this phrase all the time when discussing homosexuality, as if you have latched onto a brilliant and clear sighted explanation of love for one’s own sex. I am unsure what this means; I accept that the Church might use it in their promotional literature, but it seems frightfully wishy-washy to me
I don't think Father Ray would agree with what you have posted.
Maybe you are in need of confession and spiritual direction because you seem to have strayed into dangerous teritory.
Damian Thompson has previously admitted he is a homosexualist (and reformed alcoholic). Funny how most of the real vile and hate spewing out of the tradosphere is from homosexual men who have unresolved psychological issues and conflicts.
That's true homophobia (according to the real scientific definition).
One of Damian's closest friends was an anglican vicar who was disgraced for his sexual proclivities but that didn't stop Damian from socialising with him. Didn't hear Damian speakly publically against this 'man of God'. Funny that!
''The Church has a problem with those who seek, through their activism in the LGBT community within the Church to undermine the Teaching of the Church and to campaign for their rights in isolation. To do so is a flagrant misunderstanding and distortion of the Gospel.''
Gay people do not support their rights in isolation, they support and align themselves to many other socially exluded groups and minorities of all persuasions. The rainbow flag is a symbol of unity in diversity.
Admit it Laurence, you've made a big mistake. Be a real man and a true Christian and apologise for your truly insensitive and disgraceful remarks.
I am a gay practicisng catholic. I was so in denial of my sexuality that I married a lovely girl whose live I have done serious damage to. Ultimately I could not sustain the marriage and when the truth came out, we seperated. That's what happens when you become intimate with another and allow them a window into your soul - they can see you for what you really are. It was she who told me that I was gay and when I heard her say it I knew it to be the truth even though I had denied it to myself all my life. We have 2 children, beautiful well-formed and adjusted teenage son and daughter. I have had an equal part in their upbringing. My ex-wife has a loving partner as do I. Without her, I may never have found true happiness and real love. I am a much better person now, more tolerant and loving - before I was so emotionally twisted that I could be very crule and nasty. I have found peace and I thank the Lord for it.
I also thank the good catholic priest whom I have known most of my life who blessed our same sex partnership in church during a private ceremony, and recognised that the love we share for each other truly comes from God.
During the many years I struggled with my sexuality, I spoke with many priests inside and outside of confession. I am glad that they were more understanding and compassionate to my situation than you have demonstrated on this excuse for a catholic inspired blog. If they had been more like you then I definately wouldn't be a practising catholic today.
All gay people are hedonistic, selfish, promiscious, narcissistic, morally defective, intrinsically disordered?
Sounds like a gross generalisation based on stereotypical yet unfounded assumptions to me!
Laurence, where are you? Perhaps you are making an act of contrition?
For your penitence you should undertake several hours of community service in acts of charity to those members of the gay community who are in need.
I was at westminster cathedral at mass this morning wearing a rainbow ribbon on my lapel. I wasn't denied communion and I didn't see anyone else being refused either. Non-catholics were offered a blessing since they can't recieve. It was very inclusive and there wasn't any disruption. The cathedral is often where I attend mass.
Gosh, being controversial has really given you a spike in your viewing stats. Pity nobody agrees with you fella.
Web Watcher: A quick scan of his archives reveals that any discussion of pressing social issues/theological points/celebrations of the catholic faith typically elicit between 0 - 4 comments. Abortion/homosexuality usually net him around 40, and he is clearly an attention seeker who doesn't give a bollocks about religion. Hence, he will keep making incendiary posts [also, it's good for his persecution complex/'It might not be popular but it's true' delusion, which is an essential component of anyone's belief system during a nervous break-down]
Wow, them's some nasty responses, perhaps from only one or two people seeing as they're all anonymous and strangely similar. I didn't detect any of this hate coming from Laurence that everyone is accusing him of. At most, he disapproves of homosexuality, and is at pains to distinguish the act and the lobby from actual people. He's obviously hit a nerve, tho, and has a point that with such a powerful lobby the LGBT movement could do a huge amount of good speaking up for the poor and disenfranchised.
Does it thrill you when your bone gets crushed, Laurence?
You do seem to have a sadomasicist streak.
He might have hit a nerve, but it's his very own. Look, the man is plainly barmy; a practising/once practising homosexual who has become obsessed with appending his own self-hatred to a theological system that simply does not support it.
Why would the LGBT (I love how they add the T! How many transsexuals need to make an issue of it!?) use their 'power' to support the poor?? They are not a branch of the social services, they are a group of (in this context) religious people who happen to be gay and do not feel that this should preclude them from taking communion. Christ never said anything specific about this subject, but I would imagine that he would let them in his church; but whether or not he does is a matter for Christ, not for one gay man living in Brighton trying desperately to reconcile his own feelings of anguish and dissatisfaction with an imaginative reconstruction of church teachings
If black people were denied communion (as they once were in America), and formed a sash-wearing group to seek to be recognised spiritually, it would make no sense for a racist to say 'why don't they use their power to help the poor'. The LGBT lobby is simply a bunch of gay and lesbian people (and at most one tranny!) who are devout believers and do not want to be omitted from the church just because a few nutters like old Mrs England think they should be listened to
''He's obviously hit a nerve, tho, and has a point that with such a powerful lobby the LGBT movement could do a huge amount of good speaking up for the poor and disenfranchised.''
Too right he's hit a nerve and rightly so.
The LGBT movement do 'do a huge amount og good speaking up for the poor and the disenfranchised'.
A copy of these postings should be printed off and sent to the local bishop, Kieran Conroy, for comment. This catholic man is clearly out of order and should be publically rebuked.
Another crate-load of Twitter attack-puppies unleashed, I see.
How sad.
Great post, Laurence. Stick with it.
Rustybrain, great argument! Good to see the Church has not stepped down from the mantle of civilisation and education to become a refuge for embittered old men who .... oh wait, it has.
Look, at what point will you accept that this post was simply wrong. Theologically ignorant, vicious in tone, and implicitly inconsistent (since he is AGAIN picking exclusively on gays when there are far more people who are in unsanctioned heterosexual relationships receiving communion)
The real tragedy is, Laurence seems like a nice fella. I think some of these comments are a bit harsh (my own included). Scrub that - a lot harsh. He isn't wicked, and has a great sympathy for gays. I am just a little suspicious about his motives for talking about them non f-ing stop when really two men having sex is a drop in the ocean of the world's evils.
Again with the ever so brave anonymous commentators haranguing a man for having a past involving homosexuality...
M, as far as I'm aware, the Church doesn't deny communion to those to whom you append the term gay. Again, it seems you mistake disapproval for an act with hatred for the person. And when you accuse Loz of making up Church teaching, if anything he's being much milder than, say, St Paul or Pope B16, who put it in much stronger terms ('abomination' from Paul, and I'm sure there's an oft-quoted Ratzinger line using the term 'evil'). This blog has been consistent in providing a critique of a political lobby, as distinct from gay people, yet this is overlooked for the visceral thrill of condemning someone as a homoprobe.
As for comparing blacks in pre-civil rights movement USA with homosexuals in the UK, I find the comparison bizarre. There's about as much prejudice towards my friends and relatives for being gay as there is for them being catholic, or black, or irish, or even married, or with children and the intention to have more. There has been a very welcome move towards greater openness and understanding towards homosexuality in the last 13 years (one of the few good things accomplished by NuLabour), and these days the slightest whiff of discrimination against gays is pounced on by those in authority. Like feminism, the gay movement seems to have achieved the equality it sought, and most of its aims have been absorbed into the mainstream, leaving only the fringe-element crazy people pushing for things like the redefinition of marriage or the lowering of the age of consent for gay sex to 14. For all I know, the lobby may also be campaigning on issues of poverty or the rights of the unborn. I don't pay much attention to the GBLT lobby til it goes out of its way to brand me and my church as 'homophobic' with provocative acts like this rainbow sash nonsense during Mass, and when its supporters turn up on niche-interest blogs like this and go on the attack. There is actually a productive conversation to be had here, if folk could get over frothing at the mouth and insisting Lawrence is saying things that he never actually said.
M, you make a good point that the Church critiques all those engaging in sex outside marriage, not just gays. I suspect Loz will do a post on those who lobby for the Church's acceptance of oral sex, premarital sex, divorce, polygamy, bestiality, just as soon as they organise to show up at Mass demanding church teaching be changed to suit their preferences.
But this isn’t about people simply demanding a change in church teachings: the point is that the Church seem to adopt a ‘don’t ask don’t tell’ policy when it comes to offering communion to unmarried people (or to married couples who use contraception, engage in oral sex etc). Are you seriously telling me there are less of these people within the Church than there are gays? No, of course not; there will be millions upon millions more of them. Yet the Church, and Mr. England, single out gays for condemnation time and again. Why? Simply because they are a soft target (no pun intended). They are a group against whom social prejudices are still directed, and therefore fair-game. Look, suppose Razinger came out next Easter and said:
“If you are gay don’t have sex; if you are straight never, under any circumstances, have sex other than to produce a child; boys, upon your life do not let your girlfriends fellate you; girls – don’t even think of it!; and by the way, no wanking either, and that applies to everyone”
I would be impressed. A man who has the courage to say what he thinks, and to reveal the full implications of his moral system. But he does not, nor does England. He only ever talks about gays. The actions of a coward who doesn’t dare to say what he really thinks (or who doesn’t think clearly)
p.s. “haranguing a man for having a past involving homosexuality”? Hardly – every poster was arguing that being gay is a personal matter – you don’t need to make an issue of it. Laurence is making an issue of it, not, like the LGBT lobby by dancing in the streets, but by haranguing the LGBT lobby for doing so in a manner which is absolutely disproportionate to the threat they pose to society. Laurence is preoccupied with gays, and is clearly unhappy about it. I, for my part, am simply trying to help him get over it. Laurence, mate, if you want to kiss boys then you can. It is not inherently more obscene than kissing girls. St Paul was not the Son of God, he was a writer of letters obeying his own conscience. While he basically held the church together in the early days, his role was as a strategist and interpreter. But since Christ said nada about gays, he couldn’t very well interpret his words. Hence you can discount his own opinions about gays being unnatural (a category which in any case includes many things we do not condemn these days)
Fantastic post. Spot on. You've nailed the real problem: it's not homosexuals that cause gnashing of teeth, but the self-obsessed narcissicism of the "LGBT political lobby."
Of course the majority of your commentors totally missed the point due to their over-active feeeEEEeeelings getting in the way.
"Yet the Church, and Mr. England, single out gays for condemnation time and again. Why?"
Do you really want to know why, "M"?
Because gay activists keep throwing their homosexuality into everyone's faces. That's why. You want to know why "gays" keep ending up in the news, on blogs, in the media, and everywhere else? Because they darn well won't let us forget that THEY'RE GAY!
All that the LGBT wants is the spotlight. Plain and simple. Like a pack of whiney kids, they're screaming for attenion ~ and the best way to get attention is to play the victim.
I'll bet a lot of the folk in LGBT movement aren't really gay ~ they just "became gay" to shock their families and get attention.
Look here you twisted old witch, I am a heterosexual who has never noticed gays throwing themselves at the media. You are a frigid old cow who can't love another human being and so have to hide behind some sinister cult to express your views. You hate humanity and yourself, you see perversion everywhere because your own horrible mind is perverted.
You, Laurence, et al., are the only ones who won't forget gays BECAUSE YOU NEVER BLOODY SHUT UP ABOUT THEM. If a man is into football, or cars, it passes you by. But if they are into men, you notice it and take that as proof positive of their obsession. But it is your obsession. Perhaps you are jealous of the sincerity of their love. But is is deeply ironic that you find such consolation on this issue in Laurence - a gay man who is obsessed with other gay men! You alone do not appreciate the irony, because you alone have the mental capacity of a pea, and the ability to sympathise with humanity of a sex-killer.
No one became gay to get attention, but plenty of Catholics became catholic to get attention. Many 'defenders of the faith' on this blog have said 'oooh I know it's not popular to be Catholic these days, but there you go' or 'the most controversial thing is to be a Catholic'. If that's not seeking to get attention I don't know what is.
I appreciate your own Catholicism is a result of your low intellect and lack of empathy with human beings, but Laurence, and many others, are drawn to the church for the same reason the terrorist is drawn to the Koran: in a difficult society which lacks moral certainty the easiest way to get attention is to throw your weight behind a retrograde belief system, and then to pick on the few convenient prejudices of it that make you look 'wacky', or a 'deep thinker', or 'eccentric'. Chesterton, the Catholic's boyfriend, was a prime example. A fat old bore who endlessly extolled the virtues of being different. Attention seeking old fart
Bones, you have it exactly right, and from the rent-a-mob comments here you can see that your post hits home rather hard. Those with the sashes, or other 'here I am, It's me, look at me' symbols are really falling for the sin of pride. It is, as you describe, narcissistic and reminds me of the pharisee standing in the front of the church making sure to be seen to be penitent, whilst the real penitents are elsewhere. Perhaps next week all the adulterers can wear green ribbons? or the thieves can wear striped T shirts and carry 'swag' bags? They really do not understand
M,
From what I've seen the church operates a "don't ask, don't tell" policy about all sin, including homosexuality. The only place you're meant to unload your sins is in the confessional, and you're certainly not meant to take "pride" in them as this movement encourages. You seem to be saying the church doesn't preach on all those other issues you raise, which is patent nonsense. The difference seems to be, however, that we don't have a loud pro-abortion, or pro-divorce, or pro-premarital sex lobby turning up at our churches courting controversy. The comments from Coffee Catholic are needlessly confrontational, but it's a response provoked by the needlessly confrontational sash protest. Those of us who don't really care about homosexuality are forced onto the defensive when we see people attempting to disrupt the Mass, or attacking our friends for having a homosexual past and not being zealously gay enough.
Look, suppose Razinger (sic) came out next Easter and said: “If you are gay don’t have sex; if you are straight never, under any circumstances, have sex other than to produce a child . . . . . . . . . .and that applies to everyone”
"I would be impressed. A man who has the courage to say what he thinks, and to reveal the full implications of his moral system."
Um, yes, that's pretty much the Catholic teaching as already expressed by popes past and present. And, by the way, let’s be clear that it is the practice of homosexuality which is condemned, as is any sex outside marriage, not the orientation.
If there is an obsession manifested on this blog it seems to me that it resides in most of the posts which have been intemperate to say the least. When so much has been achieved by the LGBT lobby, why this visceral anger? You see, it smacks not of an insistence on equality, but of an implied primus inter pares.
The defilement of the holy sacrifice of the Mass to press an agenda, any agenda, is not only misguided but an insult to Christ by those who profess to love Him. Do not suppose a victory because no-one was turned away from Holy Communion at Westminster Cathedral today.
A priest does not have x-ray eyes into the state of individual souls and is bound to suppose that all who present themselves are not in mortal sin.
If he does know, then he has betrayed his calling. But greater is the self-betrayal of the communicant who will have derived no real satisfaction but an ache and longing somewhere deep within.
Can I point out to 'Uganda Kills Gays' that the Catholic church in Uganda was the only church to come out completely against the proposals to legislate against gays?
I think Laurence's post is immoderate, but I think it is borne of the intense frustration that I and other Catholics feel at the LGBT movement constantly targeting our church. The fact that gays can go into one of our public services and put on sashes confident that noone will lay a finger on them, gives the lie to the assertion that we are raving homophobes. In other places it would be a gesture far less welcome and met with far more censure.
I have some sympathy with the gay movement as a Catholic. I recognise that they, like us, suffered unjust discrimination in jobs and status and although I disapprove of homosexual acts, I do not see why gays should be singled out any more than anyone else. However, I feel that the gay movement has chosen to engage with the Catholic church in this country, because we are a minority that it is acceptable to kick, not because we are any more homophobic than anyone else. Other religions like Islam and Buddhism teach that homosexual acts are sinful; we are not unique in that regard, yet I don't remember anyone organising an 'Arrest the Dalai Lama' campaign when he came here some years ago.
I think the LGBT movement needs to consider its strategy. If it continues to target the Catholic church and ignore others who are far more hostile to them, then they are going to lose credibility. If they kick people in the teeth who are tolerant of them and rip up and deface their holy book (like they did with the Bible in the Glasgow Museum of Modern Art) they are not going to encourage anyone else to engage with them. Over to you, guys..
"He was stabbed by a young black man who cites his evangellical christian beliefs to justify his horrendous and unprovoked attack. Before the attack the young black man and friends had been shouting homophobic abuse to various gay people travelling around the area.
You just had to mention the fact he was black, didn't you?
How on earth is that at all relevant?
"You just had to mention the fact he was black, didn't you?
How on earth is that at all relevant?"
My thoughts exactly.
teresa - actually the ugandan catholic church has not come out officially against the proposed death penalty against those suspected of homosexuality, but the anglican church has particuarly the archbishop of canterbury. indeed it has been the most vocal group against the government on this matter.
a few brave catholic bishops have been critical but overall the bishops conference is divided on the issue (and some native born members of the hierachy actually supportive) and therefore prefered not to 'rock the boat' in case the church suffers sanctions.
given the gravity and inherent injustice of the situation, i would have thought the worldwide catholic church would have been making loud noises and a strong statement from the pope himself. alas, again nothing but silence from the catholic church.
Pilgrim and Suburbarama,
Normally I would agree with you that it is not relevant to mention someones ethnicity when making a report. However in this case the ethnic background of this young black man was a relevant factor since his violent actions were fueled by his homophobic views which (he said) were formed by his evangelical christian beliefs. He attended a (mostly) african evangelical christian church, many of which are known for citing supoosedly biblical interpretations which are used to justify their extreme homophobia.
Teresa - ''However, I feel that the gay movement has chosen to engage with the Catholic church in this country, because we are a minority that it is acceptable to kick, not because we are any more homophobic than anyone else. ''
If the Catholic church (or rather a small minority within it) backed off gays and trying to subvert their himan and civil rights, then I think you'd find that gay people would leave the church alone.
The catholic church is a minority? - actually it represents the majority of regular church goers in this country and holds a vast amonunt of power and influence. And even if the catholic church is a 'minority' then it shouldn't be constantly attempting to impose it's beliefs on the majority within society. You can't persecute people and then complain when they fight back.
above should read...
and the catholic church WORLDWIDE holds a vast amount of power and influence
''I think the LGBT movement needs to consider its strategy. If it continues to target the Catholic church and ignore others who are far more hostile to them, then they are going to lose credibility. If they kick people in the teeth who are tolerant of them and rip up and deface their holy book (like they did with the Bible in the Glasgow Museum of Modern Art) they are not going to encourage anyone else to engage with them. ''
The gay lobby do campaign vigorously against islamic homophobis and the many gay people who recieve the death sentence each year. I believe there was also a demonstration against the Dali Lama although I think Budhists more generally are much more accepting. The fact remains that the catholic church is the largest homophobic religious institution in this country.
''The real tragedy is, Laurence seems like a nice fella. I think some of these comments are a bit harsh (my own included). Scrub that - a lot harsh. He isn't wicked, and has a great sympathy for gays. I am just a little suspicious about his motives for talking about them non f-ing stop when really two men having sex is a drop in the ocean of the world's evils.
''
You can only judge somebody by their deeds, these few articles are pure evil hence this Laurence guy is 100% wicked. He hasn't said anything even to acknowledge that he was in the wrong. It doesn't even appear to have read the comments or taken in any of the information condradicting his false interpretation of catholic teachings on this matter.
Condemn Uganda,
Could you provide me with some links and sources please on this.
My understanding of the situation re the Catholic church in Uganda is that Archbishop Cyprian Lwanga in his Christmas sermon and a couple of weeks later in January, unequivocally condemned the bill. It was reported in the Daily Monitor;
http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/-/688334/840276/-/wh9b6q/-/index.html
Also Fr Philip Bene, the legal attache to the Vatican's UN Mission, had this to say in a panel discussion in reference to Uganda;
The Vatican said it opposes discriminatory penal legislation against gay people during a United Nations panel discussion on sexual orientation. Long says the people in attendance were “stunned”. According the Vatican’s statement, delivered by Father Philip Bene, legal attaché to the Holy See’s UN mission:
“Thank you for convening this panel discussion and for providing the opportunity to hear some very serious concerns raised this afternoon. My comments are more in the form of a statement rather than a question.
As stated during the debate of the General Assembly last year, the Holy See continues to oppose all grave violations of human rights against homosexual persons, such as the use of the death penalty, torture and other cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment. The Holy See also opposes all forms of violence and unjust discrimination against homosexual persons, including discriminatory penal legislation which undermines the inherent dignity of the human person.
As raised by some of the panelists today, the murder and abuse of homosexual persons are to be confronted on all levels, especially when such violence is perpetrated by the State. While the Holy See’s position on the concepts of sexual orientation and gender identity remains well known, we continue to call on all States and individuals to respect the rights of all persons and to work to promote their inherent dignity and worth.”
I think the titular head of the Ugandan Catholic church and the UN spokesman for the Vatican add up to more than 'a few brave bishops' myself.
Theresa,
thank you for taking the time to publish that statement from the Vatican's attache.
"let’s be clear that it is the practice of homosexuality which is condemned, as is any sex outside marriage, not the orientation."
EXACTLY. And this is the point that is not being grasped by militant homosexual activists. It is not the sexual orientation, the state of being homosexual, that is sinful.
It is: the act of extra-marital sex that is sinful. For *everyone* be they straight or gay.
However in this case the ethnic background of this young black man was a relevant factor since his violent actions were fueled by his homophobic views which (he said) were formed by his evangelical christian beliefs.
That means his RELIGION is relevant. That has nothing to do with the colour of his skin.
I don't understand the compulsion to broadcast one's sexual orientation. Why does anyone, Catholic or otherwise, feel the need to make it known that they are a gay-... or a straight-...?
Sex and sexuality is (or certainly should be) a private thing, so why the need to identify oneself (almost entirely) in terms of one's sexuality?
There will not be a LGBT heaven so why the need to be a LGBT-Catholic? It doesn't make any sense, either you are a Catholic and you believe and follow what the Church teaches or you don't. Either you are a Catholic or you are not.
I don't understand the compulsion to broadcast one's sexual orientation. Why does anyone, Catholic or otherwise, feel the need to make it known that they are a gay-... or a straight-...?
Sex and sexuality is (or certainly should be) a private thing, so why the need to identify oneself (almost entirely) in terms of one's sexuality?
There will not be a LGBT heaven so why the need to be a LGBT-Catholic? It doesn't make any sense, either you are a Catholic and you believe and follow what the Church teaches or you don't. Either you are a Catholic or you are not.
Thanks shadowlands. Hope you get back to blogging soon; missing you already..
Hexagonaute,
Absolutely right. From being "the love that dare not speak its name" homosexuality has become, in some cases, "the love that never bloody well shuts up".
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