tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post6860195589123377551..comments2024-01-08T10:10:48.074+00:00Comments on That The Bones You Have Crushed May Thrill: Excellent Article on Blessed Pope John Paul IIThe Boneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10271719805983763595noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-10421672313583450792012-02-19T18:40:42.061+00:002012-02-19T18:40:42.061+00:00I am glad that I have seen a lot of the statements...I am glad that I have seen a lot of the statements above regarding the newly Beatified Pope. I thought that I was the only one who also felt that although his papacy was an improvement over Pope Paul's the end of it is mixed. The clerical sex-abuse issue I am afraid will continue to overshadow his legacy. And I also agree that there was and still is a strong Personality Cult with this Pope unlike past onesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-27656970693771448592011-05-03T14:10:20.405+01:002011-05-03T14:10:20.405+01:00Happy birthday to you too Paul! lolHappy birthday to you too Paul! lolSeánnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-4289029902791130382011-05-03T10:12:57.845+01:002011-05-03T10:12:57.845+01:00Say it again Sam! Sorry, I mean Sean.Say it again Sam! Sorry, I mean Sean.Paul Smeatonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18085686998646292793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-44558990052662906212011-05-02T23:53:41.210+01:002011-05-02T23:53:41.210+01:00And anyway Justin, this polemic is getting silly. ...And anyway Justin, this polemic is getting silly. I have not attacked the beatification. To do so would not be an attack on the Holy Father. And you seem to also think that the will of the Holy Father is immutable and above question. Why do we still have ultramontanism?! What would you say to St Paul when he reproached St Peter to his face? We spend all our time presenting careufully formulated arguments to evangelicals about what exactly papal authority means - only to promptly through them out when we deal with the Pope himself or other Catholics. So I will question the Pope here and will continue to do so on other matters that make no sense to me, because that is my duty as a Catholic with rational faculties. I recognise his primacy and his authority, I hold everything that the Catholic Church teaches and says is revealed by God. Again:<br /><br />‘Peter has no need of our lies or flattery. Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very people who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See – they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations.’Seánnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-91171123069336668012011-05-02T23:49:47.238+01:002011-05-02T23:49:47.238+01:00'Attack the Pope'!
Did St Paul attack the...'Attack the Pope'!<br /><br />Did St Paul attack the Pope?<br /><br />"An attack on BXVI is an attack on the Church, and as Christ said, an attack on the Church is an attack on Christ himself."<br /><br />First off, I didn't attack the Pope. As a faithful son, I questioned the prudence of the action of my father. If you think I have sinned there, please say so. I however suggest that a subtle ultramontanism is at work here. Crd Ratzinger himself said that one could legitimately say that it would be better if a certain Pope hadn't defined a certain thing, or if a Council had not been called.<br /><br />Regarding Ultramontanism, as Cano of Trent said:<br /><br />‘Peter has no need of our lies or flattery. Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very people who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See – they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations.’<br /><br />Once the Church deemed it important enough to wait decades after the death of a person, to avoid accusations of personal bias towards ones' deceased friend. I am not accusing Pope Benedict of this. But others are. That could have been side-stepped had we waited. Once we had a devil's advocate for causes to test all of the evidence - and to try to disprove the miracles. Now, Bl John Paul himself saw fit to get rid of that post, and when I and others question his cause, we are railed against. And off course we can question what is said in a homily by a Pope. We are not ultramontanists!<br /><br />Summorum pontificum is NOT infallible, it is a legal document. To disobey it is illegal, not unfaithful. Humnae vitae is infallbile, in virtue of it's reiteration of traditional teaching of the ordinary magisterium.<br /><br />Beatifications and homilies are neither legal nor infallible.<br /><br />Justin, if you would like to point out where I have been disrespectful or disobedient I would be grateful. You will notice that I have referred to the late Pope as Bl throughout this discussion. I have asked for his intercession privately. I am NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT questioning his beatification (though a Catholic could do so in good conscience and remain in good standing with the Church, even if some people want to insist on ultramontanism!). I am saying that I believe his canonisation to have been imprudent, for the reasons contained in the Remnant article. After another round of comments, still no one has actually addressed that point, and Justin has simply told me that I have no right to have that view. Justin, you've also basically told me that I'm not a faithful Catholic (because you think I'm attacking the Pope). In response, I simply repeat Cano:<br /><br />‘Peter has no need of our lies or flattery. Those who blindly and indiscriminately defend every decision of the Supreme Pontiff are the very people who do most to undermine the authority of the Holy See – they destroy instead of strengthening its foundations.’<br /><br />Pax!Seánnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-82963251467125050502011-05-02T16:06:27.243+01:002011-05-02T16:06:27.243+01:00Lets also remember another thing re the Beatificat...Lets also remember another thing re the Beatification. It is the will of the Pope. And Benedict himself said - it is the will of God.<br /><br />Those who challenge Benedict XVI, who think they know better than him what the Church needs, who think they have a better picture of the worldwide Church than him, better make their reasons exceedingly clear.<br /><br />It seems to me that people think they can attack the beatification of John Paul II without attacking the judgment of the Holy Father as well. In this case, especially after his Homily, there can be no distinction. An attack on JP2 constitutes an attack on BXVI. An attack on BXVI is an attack on the Church, and as Christ said, an attack on the Church is an attack on Christ himself. <br /><br />This is why I am passionate about this. You can't be a faithful Catholic an attack the Pope.justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15441632434304154517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-32476105393003104562011-05-02T15:55:35.103+01:002011-05-02T15:55:35.103+01:00"But what Justin has said beatification is, i..."But what Justin has said beatification is, is wrong."<br /><br />I didn't say Beatification was infallible. But it IS authoritative as it is a judgment by the Supreme Pontiff himself and demand the respect of an authoritative statement instead of reducing it to something as trite as "subjective sentimentality and affection" which is what Sean said. Because it is not. It is a judgment of the Pope based upon objective criteria such as first-hand experience of the personal sanctity of John Paul II, and also of the miracle worked by God through the intercession of the Pope.<br /><br />Humanae Vitae is not infallible. Summorum Pontificum is not infallible. But they are authoritative nonetheless and demand respect (and obedience). Similarly this beatification demands the same.justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15441632434304154517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-13317043533576667482011-05-02T11:30:44.961+01:002011-05-02T11:30:44.961+01:00Heaven rejoices, so do we. The Church triumphant r...Heaven rejoices, so do we. The Church triumphant rejoices, so do we.The Boneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10271719805983763595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-47954389841627391512011-05-02T11:27:35.712+01:002011-05-02T11:27:35.712+01:00Lots of strawmen! I didn't say he was a bad Po...Lots of strawmen! I didn't say he was a bad Pope (though I dared to question it! And the application of 'Great'). I didn't say he wasn't a beatus. I didn't say he wasn't in heaven. I didn't say the miracle was false.<br /><br />I have however questioned the prudence of this beatification, because of the repurcussions and implications it has, because of what it will say in the future about things that, let's be honest, all of us here are concerned about. And this is a concern that no one has answered here!<br /><br />And actually, a beatification is a permission for a cult, and permission to believe that this person beholds the beatific vision. Not a command! It is not a definitive statement, that's canonisation. I'm not denying that Bl JP is in heaven! But what Justin has said beatification is, is wrong.<br /><br />This general agreement of theologians as to papal infallibility in canonization must not be extended to beatification, not withstanding the contrary teaching of the canonical commentary known as "Glossa" ... Canonists and theologians generally deny the infallible character of decrees of beatification, whether formal or equivalent, since it is always a permission, not a command; while it leads to canonization, it is not the last step. Moreover, in most cases, the cultus permitted by beatification, is restricted to a determined province, city, or religious body ... Some, however, have thought otherwise.<br /><br />http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm<br /><br />I did say pax you guys, there's no need to impute disobedience to me! Or to insinuate I live on another planet, or that I'm knocking Bl JP2. As I have made clear, I am not. But if we can't have a civil conversation presuming the good faith of all involved then fair enough.Seánnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-26965566911128626482011-05-02T09:07:56.297+01:002011-05-02T09:07:56.297+01:00Sean,
Just because Beatification is not an exerci...Sean,<br /><br />Just because Beatification is not an exercise in Magesterial infallibility does not mean that those who dismiss it are not disobedient.<br /><br />Summorum Pontificum was not an exercise in infallibility and yet those who dismiss it are clearly disobedient to the express wishes of the Holy Father.<br /><br />When beatifying John Paul II, the Pope may or may not have been speaking infallibly, but he was speaking authoritatively. <br /><br />And what was the Holy Father saying authoritatively? He was not suggesting that the Beatification was the act of the Congregation of Causes of Saints, or even recognition of the works of John Paul II himself. No, what the Pope was teaching authoritatively is that Beatification is recognition of the work of God, who through his cross and resurrection has redeemed the sinner, Karol, and brought him into the fullness of the beatific vision, numbering him among the Blessed.<br /><br />Through the new Beatus intercession we have definitive proof of God's redemptive work through a miraculous intervention of a nun suffering from Parkinson's.<br /><br />As for heroic virtue...the best person to judge this would be Pope Benedict. Not us. He himself saw how John Paul worked, who his enemies were, and what happened to the Church and he has been left with John Paul's legacy. The best judge of his legacy would therefore be Benedict himself. And there is no one in the world I trust more than the judgment of the Holy Father Benedict XVI.<br /><br />Pope John Paul II publicly forgave his would-be assassin. That alone demonstrates heroic virtue, and gave us an example for all to follow.justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15441632434304154517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-52603748007528787772011-05-02T07:35:31.914+01:002011-05-02T07:35:31.914+01:00Sean, we are both aware that the Vatican's inv...Sean, we are both aware that the Vatican's investigations of cited Miracles are extremely thorough. Through his intercession, a nun was healed, right? Unless you think the nun, the doctors and the Church are lying, Pope John Paul II is in Heaven, known to be in Heaven in a way in which Marcel Lefebvre is not known to be in Heaven. For all we know, Lefebvre could be roasting in the lowest region of Hell. I'm not speculating, mind, just saying that Heaven, through a Miracle attributed to Bl.JPII has revealed what Heaven wants the Church to know. JPII is reigning with Christ and the Hearts of Christ and His Mother listen to him!<br /><br />Now, certain individuals within and without the Church may be unhappy that Pope John Paul II was so holy that Bl. Mother Teresa welcomed him into Paradise as soon as he died, but that doesn't change the facts. This resistance to the truth is just based on feelings, Sean, feelings!<br /><br />The Church has spoken. That is, God's Church! God has made it known to His Church that He wills for the Church to have Bl. JPII as a holy intercessor before the Throne of God. That is why yesterday's events took place. In order to assert otherwise, you would have to allege that the Catholic Church fabricated a healing and a miracle to justify the Beatification of JPII. A bit far fetched, no?<br /><br />By the way, popular canonisations based on public feeling go way back. St Anthony of Padua was canonised a year after his death. The same was true of St Francis of Assisi. Oh but they were different weren't they?! Uh-huh...why? Just another loud crowd shouting 'Santo Subito' at the end of the day.<br /><br />Finally, Bl.JPII knockers are a little much. Sure. I'd like to see you be Pope and carry the Cross as heroically as he did. I'd like to see you bring down Communism. I'd like to see you hold the fort against the tsunami of liberalism within the Church. I'd like to see you being Pope for one day and see how you manage!<br /><br /><br />Pope John Paul II is in Heaven. <br /><br />I don't know what planet his critics inhabit.The Boneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10271719805983763595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-50072474684682594332011-05-01T23:56:40.375+01:002011-05-01T23:56:40.375+01:00More good stuff, from Hilary White:
--------------...More good stuff, from Hilary White:<br />-----------------<br />So, here's my message for the JPII cheerleaders in town today:<br /><br />There is a difference between your feelings about John Paul and the man himself. <br /><br />Your enthusiasm for him does not make him a saint. <br /><br />It doesn't make him "the Great". <br /><br />It doesn't, in fact, have anything to do with him at all. <br /><br />It mostly has to do with you and your feelings. <br /><br />Your feelings about something don't affect that thing. They don't change facts or history. Feeling good about the Beatification doesn't make it a good thing for the Church. <br />------------<br />http://anglocath.blogspot.com/2011/05/john-paul-grating.htmlSeannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2389530333077823143.post-47536642872665083772011-05-01T22:51:39.362+01:002011-05-01T22:51:39.362+01:00Sainthood isn't just about personal holiness, ...Sainthood isn't just about personal holiness, it's about heroic virtue in one's state of life. A very holy husband and father who spends so much time in union with God that his household falls apart, would not have exercised heroic virtue. A priest's heroic virtue will be judged by his accountability for the souls of his flock, even more so a bishop, even more so a Pope.<br /><br />Bl Jphn Paul did some great things. He wrote some great things. He had a great posthumous influence on my reversion to the Faith. But we cannot allow subjective sentimentality and affection for a man who did something for (even a very great number) of individuals cloud our judgement about the state of the WHOLE Church under his reign. It's grand that various converts and reverts came back because of him. That doesn't mean he should be beatified, it doesn't mean he lived a life of heroic virtue, it doesn't mean he was a good Pope.<br /><br />And lest anyone impute bad faith to me, beatification is not an infallible exercise of the magisterium, and even if it was, the faithful have a right (according to Newman) to suggest that it was unfortunate that the magisterium was exercised infallbily. <br /><br />What this beatification says to most is that, on the whole, most of what JP2 did was good. So this will include Assisi, pagan inculturation, altar girls, kissing of Qurans, Fr Maciel, 'St John the Baptist protect Islam', and the excommunication of 5 Catholics trying to be faithful to the Church (and the non-excommunication of countless liberal heretics and schismatics). <br /><br />The below statement is a fuller account of the problems. I wish people would have left it a few years and been more dispassionate instead of focusing on what Bl JP did for ME etc...<br /><br />Pax Laurence!<br /><br />Seán, Ox.<br /><br />http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/2011-0331-statement-of-reservations-beatification.htmSeánnoreply@blogger.com