What use has anyone for a black cope? The current correct liturgical colour for funerals is purple. If you read the sacred constitution on the liturgy, you will see that vatican II called for the liturgical colour for funerals to be reformed - it's there in black and white. If the cope is of artistic or historical merit then give it to a museum - but I suspect it's of little value so should be burnt.
Fr Malcolm clearly cannot read! Black, apart from being the tradition colour for funerals & Masses for the dead, is STILL permitted by the Church as a "correct liturgical colour": GIRM no.346. "Traditional usage should be retained for the colours of sacred vestments:
e. Black may be used, where it is the practice, in Masses for the Dead."
What part of this does he not understand? He is LYING when he says that "The current correct liturgical colour for funerals is purple."
Black is permitted as an option where people request it (but it is not normative). Purple (or where more appropriate, white) is the normative colour for funerals. Fr Mark you qoute from the GIRM but the sacred constitution on the liturgy is quite clear, it explicitly called for the funeral rites and liturgical colour to be reformed. Read the actual document please.
''What part of this does he not understand? He is LYING when he says that "The current correct liturgical colour for funerals is purple." I cerTainly am not lying and I don't like your tone Reverend Father. I can only assume you are SSPX or from some other schismatic sect.
I think poor Fr Malcolm is caught in a time warp. I also think his reading is also of little value. Perhaps he should burn his books - I doubt they are any more fashionable or relevant than the black cope which alarmingly seems to cause him so much concern. I rather doubt Fr Malcolm's dated and tired tomes would be snapped up by a museum. What's really peeving Father Malcolm?
81. Funeral rites should express more clearly the paschal character of Christian death, and should correspond more closely to the circumstances and traditions found in various regions. This also applies to the liturgical colour to be used.
Fr. Mark may have overstepped the mark when using the term "lying", charity might have dictated the use of a less perjorative term to get his point across.
However, we were truly lied to by both hierarchy and clergy for a couple of generations regarding the "abrogation" of the Old Mass, were we we not, so it does happen.
Utilising the term "SSPX or some other schismatic sect", with regard to Fr. Mark, usually creates a fire-storm on the web {ask Fr. Zuhlsdorf].
Fr Malcolm says that 'they should correspond to the traditions of the regions.' In Britain and as far as I know in Europe as a whole it is still the custom for people to wear black (or at least dark) clothes to a funeral. When I attended a funeral of a friend who had left instructions that we should all wear bright colours, we all received some very strange looks from those coming out from the previous service.
Priests wearing white or cream for a funeral are not actually reflecting the customs even if they are allowed. I would wish for black vestments for my own.
In Britain and as far as I know in Europe as a whole it is still the custom for people to wear black (or at least dark) clothes to a funeral.
- which is why in this country the correct normative colour for funerals is purple (not white). In countries such as Japan where it is culturally more appropriate, the normative colour is white. Black may only be used where it is requested, it is a concession.
lms rep - ''I think poor Fr Malcolm is caught in a time warp. I also think his reading is also of little value. Perhaps he should burn his books - I doubt they are any more fashionable or relevant than the black cope which alarmingly seems to cause him so much concern. I rather doubt Fr Malcolm's dated and tired tomes would be snapped up by a museum.''
The 'book' I refered to was THE SACRED CONSTITUTION ON THE LITURGY which is an authorative document of the second vatican council and forms part of the Church's teaching Magesterium. We cannot burn it and your suggestion that we should places you on the borders of schism.
Fr Malcolm continues to dissemble: "Black is permitted as an option where people request it (but it is not normative). Purple (or where more appropriate, white) is the normative colour for funerals."
The GIRM, which is also, to use his own phrase "an authorative document..and forms part of the Church's teaching Magesterium." CLEARLY states that black is a normative colour. Here is the norm in question:No 346 "Traditional usage should be retained for the colours of sacred vestments:
e. Black may be used, where it is the practice, in Masses for the Dead."
I also see no mention of black vestments being "an option where people request it" - it is simply permitted. The priest can use black even when no-one has requested it.
He continues his dissembling thus: "the sacred constitution on the liturgy is quite clear, it explicitly called for the funeral rites and liturgical colour to be reformed. Read the actual document please." He then quotes SC 81: "Funeral rites should express more clearly the paschal character of Christian death, and should correspond more closely to the circumstances and traditions found in various regions. This also applies to the liturgical colour to be used."
However, the outcome of this 'reform', as he calls it, was the Missal of Paul VI - which CLEARLY (GIRM 346) stated that black is a normative colour.
Fr Malcolm is trying to pretend that the GIRM is not authoritative - only the 'spirit of the Council'is normative according to priests of his ilk.
Fr Malcolm doesn't like being accused of lying. Who does? Lying is the deliberate telling of falsehoods in order to deceive. Is he guilty?
Well, the falsity of his statements has already been established on this thread, so was he deliberately telling porkies in order to deceive?
The evidence would seem to argue that he was.
He makes the following statements which he knows to be untrue:
1) 'The current correct liturgical colour for funerals is purple.'
2) 'Black is permitted as an option where people request it (but it is not normative). Purple (or where more appropriate, white) is the normative colour for funerals.'
3)'Black may only be used where it is requested, it is a concession.'
The GIRM states CLEARLY that 'violet, white or black vestments' may be worn. His other falsehood - 'where people request it', is an invention of his own, not being found in the documents. He actually elaborates on this pretty fiction of his by saying 'Black may only be used where it is requested, it is a concession.'
He has invented this restriction with the intention of deceiving, methinks! He must know that there is no such restriction in any of the pertinent documents. After all, he is quick enough to quote Sacrosanctum concilium when he thinks it agrees with him. (Though Fr Mark has pointed out that the General Instruction to the Roman postdates SC and is actually the result of it!)
I suggest that Fr Malcolm has deliberately made statements that he knows to be false with the intention of bolstering his own obvious distaste for the traditions of the past.
Fr Mark, you will be well aware that SC and the GIRM do not hold equal authorative weight. SC is an authorative teaching document promulgated by a scared council while the GIRM are legislative guidelines on the celebration of mass from the Congrgation for Divine Worship (a department of the Roman curia) which can and have been changed - it is not a teaching document and does not form part of the church's authorative teaching magesterium.
Having said that, I was not aware that the new edition of the current edition of the GIRM includes black as a normative colour. Certainly the previous edition did not and black was only allowed for funerals where is was requested as a concession and not by the mere preference of the priest. Black is not stated as a legitimate option in the ordo. I do not have a copy of the GIRM at hand to check your reference but I will and get back to you if I am mistaken. Arguably since SC trumps the GIRM in terms of authortaive teaching and called for the reform of the litugical colour for funerals then purple should be used in normal circumstances. It cannot be disputed that SC called for a change of liturgical practice in this matter
Fr Mark - the difference in opinion may arise from you being american. To qoute GIRM 346 in full (which you did not):
Besides violet, white or black vestments may be worn at funeral services and at other Offices and Masses for the Dead in the Dioceses of the United States of America.
I am from the UK and i will need to look up the relevant GIRM here.
I suspect this is where the difference lies, not from lying skemdad.
Fr Malcom I think you should recheck your copy of the GIRM 346 states "Black may be used where it is the practice in Masses for the Dead" that is from the April 2005 edition from the Bishops Conference of England and Wales. It does not need to be requested and Black was always the practice in England and Wales
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Why not keep it for Fr. Ray Blake? I'm sure he'd put it to good use.
ReplyDeleteIt's too short for him.
ReplyDeleteWhat use has anyone for a black cope? The current correct liturgical colour for funerals is purple. If you read the sacred constitution on the liturgy, you will see that vatican II called for the liturgical colour for funerals to be reformed - it's there in black and white.
ReplyDeleteIf the cope is of artistic or historical merit then give it to a museum - but I suspect it's of little value so should be burnt.
Fr Malcolm clearly cannot read! Black, apart from being the tradition colour for funerals & Masses for the dead, is STILL permitted by the Church as a "correct liturgical colour":
ReplyDeleteGIRM no.346. "Traditional usage should be retained for the colours of sacred vestments:
e. Black may be used, where it is the practice, in Masses for the Dead."
What part of this does he not understand? He is LYING when he says that "The current correct liturgical colour for funerals is purple."
Such priests have much to answer for!
Fr.Malcolm,
ReplyDeleteMy sin for to-day: you are a pedant! Also are you saying a TLM REquiem is not licit?
Speechless.
Be fair though, it is just an matter of liturgical colours. It's not a huge mistake to make.
ReplyDeleteBlack is permitted as an option where people request it (but it is not normative). Purple (or where more appropriate, white) is the normative colour for funerals. Fr Mark you qoute from the GIRM but the sacred constitution on the liturgy is quite clear, it explicitly called for the funeral rites and liturgical colour to be reformed. Read the actual document please.
ReplyDelete''What part of this does he not understand? He is LYING when he says that "The current correct liturgical colour for funerals is purple."
I cerTainly am not lying and I don't like your tone Reverend Father. I can only assume you are SSPX or from some other schismatic sect.
I think poor Fr Malcolm is caught in a time warp. I also think his reading is also of little value. Perhaps he should burn his books - I doubt they are any more fashionable or relevant than the black cope which alarmingly seems to cause him so much concern. I rather doubt Fr Malcolm's dated and tired tomes would be snapped up by a museum.
ReplyDeleteWhat's really peeving Father Malcolm?
81. Funeral rites should express more clearly the paschal character of Christian death, and should correspond more closely to the circumstances and traditions found in various regions. This also applies to the liturgical colour to be used.
ReplyDeleteFr. Mark may have overstepped the mark when using the term "lying", charity might have dictated the use of a less perjorative term to get his point across.
ReplyDeleteHowever, we were truly lied to by both hierarchy and clergy for a couple of generations regarding the "abrogation" of the Old Mass, were we we not, so it does happen.
Utilising the term "SSPX or some other schismatic sect", with regard to Fr. Mark, usually creates a fire-storm on the web {ask Fr. Zuhlsdorf].
Fr Malcolm says that 'they should correspond to the traditions of the regions.' In Britain and as far as I know in Europe as a whole it is still the custom for people to wear black (or at least dark) clothes to a funeral. When I attended a funeral of a friend who had left instructions that we should all wear bright colours, we all received some very strange looks from those coming out from the previous service.
ReplyDeletePriests wearing white or cream for a funeral are not actually reflecting the customs even if they are allowed. I would wish for black vestments for my own.
Have you found a short Priest yet Laurence?
In Britain and as far as I know in Europe as a whole it is still the custom for people to wear black (or at least dark) clothes to a funeral.
ReplyDelete- which is why in this country the correct normative colour for funerals is purple (not white). In countries such as Japan where it is culturally more appropriate, the normative colour is white. Black may only be used where it is requested, it is a concession.
lms rep - ''I think poor Fr Malcolm is caught in a time warp. I also think his reading is also of little value. Perhaps he should burn his books - I doubt they are any more fashionable or relevant than the black cope which alarmingly seems to cause him so much concern. I rather doubt Fr Malcolm's dated and tired tomes would be snapped up by a museum.''
ReplyDeleteThe 'book' I refered to was THE SACRED CONSTITUTION ON THE LITURGY which is an authorative document of the second vatican council and forms part of the Church's teaching Magesterium. We cannot burn it and your suggestion that we should places you on the borders of schism.
Fr Malcolm continues to dissemble:
ReplyDelete"Black is permitted as an option where people request it (but it is not normative). Purple (or where more appropriate, white) is the normative colour for funerals."
The GIRM, which is also, to use his own phrase "an authorative document..and forms part of the Church's teaching Magesterium." CLEARLY states that black is a normative colour. Here is the norm in question:No 346 "Traditional usage should be retained for the colours of sacred vestments:
e. Black may be used, where it is the practice, in Masses for the Dead."
I also see no mention of black vestments being "an option where people request it" - it is simply permitted. The priest can use black even when no-one has requested it.
He continues his dissembling thus:
"the sacred constitution on the liturgy is quite clear, it explicitly called for the funeral rites and liturgical colour to be reformed. Read the actual document please." He then quotes SC 81: "Funeral rites should express more clearly the paschal character of Christian death, and should correspond more closely to the circumstances and traditions found in various regions. This also applies to the liturgical colour to be used."
However, the outcome of this 'reform', as he calls it, was the Missal of Paul VI - which CLEARLY (GIRM 346) stated that black is a normative colour.
Fr Malcolm is trying to pretend that the GIRM is not authoritative - only the 'spirit of the Council'is normative according to priests of his ilk.
Fr Malcolm doesn't like being accused of lying. Who does?
ReplyDeleteLying is the deliberate telling of falsehoods in order to deceive. Is he guilty?
Well, the falsity of his statements has already been established on this thread, so was he deliberately telling porkies in order to deceive?
The evidence would seem to argue that he was.
He makes the following statements which he knows to be untrue:
1) 'The current correct liturgical colour for funerals is purple.'
2) 'Black is permitted as an option where people request it (but it is not normative). Purple (or where more appropriate, white) is the normative colour for funerals.'
3)'Black may only be used where it is requested, it is a concession.'
The GIRM states CLEARLY that 'violet, white or black vestments' may be worn. His other falsehood - 'where people request it', is an invention of his own, not being found in the documents.
He actually elaborates on this pretty fiction of his by saying
'Black may only be used where it is requested, it is a concession.'
He has invented this restriction with the intention of deceiving, methinks! He must know that there is no such restriction in any of the pertinent documents. After all, he is quick enough to quote Sacrosanctum concilium when he thinks it agrees with him. (Though Fr Mark has pointed out that the General Instruction to the Roman postdates SC and is actually the result of it!)
I suggest that Fr Malcolm has deliberately made statements that he knows to be false with the intention of bolstering his own obvious distaste for the traditions of the past.
Some people might describe that as lying!
Fr Mark, you will be well aware that SC and the GIRM do not hold equal authorative weight. SC is an authorative teaching document promulgated by a scared council while the GIRM are legislative guidelines on the celebration of mass from the Congrgation for Divine Worship (a department of the Roman curia) which can and have been changed - it is not a teaching document and does not form part of the church's authorative teaching magesterium.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I was not aware that the new edition of the current edition of the GIRM includes black as a normative colour. Certainly the previous edition did not and black was only allowed for funerals where is was requested as a concession and not by the mere preference of the priest. Black is not stated as a legitimate option in the ordo. I do not have a copy of the GIRM at hand to check your reference but I will and get back to you if I am mistaken.
Arguably since SC trumps the GIRM in terms of authortaive teaching and called for the reform of the litugical colour for funerals then purple should be used in normal circumstances. It cannot be disputed that SC called for a change of liturgical practice in this matter
Fr Mark - the difference in opinion may arise from you being american. To qoute GIRM 346 in full (which you did not):
ReplyDeleteBesides violet, white or black vestments may be worn at funeral services and at other Offices and Masses for the Dead in the Dioceses of the United States of America.
I am from the UK and i will need to look up the relevant GIRM here.
I suspect this is where the difference lies, not from lying skemdad.
GIRM 346 (UK):
ReplyDeleteBlack may be used, where it is requested, in Masses for the Dead.
perhaps you should send the cope to the US lawrence.
Fr Malcom
ReplyDeleteI think you should recheck your copy of the GIRM
346 states "Black may be used where it is the practice in Masses for the Dead" that is from the April 2005 edition from the Bishops Conference of England and Wales. It does not need to be requested and Black was always the practice in England and Wales