Lost Causes

Stephen Hough has written a piece on 'Gay teen suicides: Is there anything Pope Benedict could do?'

He writes...

'It’s only been a few days since Pope Benedict left our shores after what seems to have been a genuinely successful visit.  Of course, many Catholics were ecstatic about every second in which the red shoes were planted on British soil; that’s not so surprising: there were enough extraordinary, historic moments in his trip to encourage such a response. But what was more unexpected for me was a couple of my sober and cynical non-Catholic friends admitting to being surprised at how much they just … liked the Pope.  If he is a rottweiler, then he’s one who seems to encourage a tickle on the tummy rather than a bite-proof arm glove.

But then I read today, via Andrew Sullivan’s blog, about a case in Indiana of yet another gay teen who has committed suicide after the bullying in school just got too much for him.  Homosexual teenagers are four times more likely to take their own lives than heterosexual ones, and this website from The Trevor Project offers information and direct help for those who see suicide as the only way out. Now I’m not laying the blame for gay teen suicides at the (red-shod) feet of Pope Benedict, in fact this post is not meant as a personal criticism of him at all; but it came unavoidably to my mind, as I felt intensely sad at the waste of a young life, that the teaching he is bound to uphold has no real solution to this problem.'
Good Lord...We may have a wonderful Holy Father but he isn't Superman, for Heaven's sake, flying around towns and cities untying nooses! I have responded on his blog as I saw appropriate as follows...

'The letter by the then Cardinal Ratzinger is absolutely, 100% correct on homosexuality. Let's analyse it:

“It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs.”

This is correct and is reaffirmed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Church upholds the innate God-given dignity of the homosexual person, as well as all persons.

“The proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered.”

Again, he is 100% correct. Pastorally speaking, it is not prudent or loving to tell someone that the homosexual condition is 'normal', lest you lead a parishioner to think that to act upon it is a moral good. What is required, as well as doctrinal firmness, is compassion, love, mercy and forgiveness.

It may be common, but the condition is a still a moral disorder. I should know. I have it and believe me, I have at various times felt suicidal because of it. I have good friends, kind parents and know a couple of Catholics who counselled me throughout my coming to terms with it.

Because, however, it is a moral disorder, this does not alter the person's value as an adopted son or daughter of God, just as an alcoholic is still loved by God, though he suffers a moral disorder, or someone who has a propensity to masturbation is still loved by God, though he suffers a moral disorder. We are all sinners who God loves and if there is one thing God needs to make Saints, it is sinners.

In as much as the condition exists of itself, morally speaking, although it is a disorder, if not acted upon, it is morally neutral. It is not a matter of sin either venial or mortal if unacted upon. When a man is in a State of Grace a man is in a State of Grace.

Yet, Priests are dealing with a fallen World in which many carry various Crosses which 'constitute a trial'. The homosexual condition is one of these Crosses that men and women find themselves carrying and it is a heavy one. This leads nicely into the theme of your article in which you ask whether there is anything the Holy Father can do?

Well, he constantly reaffirms the love that Jesus has for everyone and that it is only in loving Him and living for Him that we can become happy. He cannot, or would not, or should not, as Pastor and Shepherd to the World's Faithful, have to make a special message to homosexuals, since the Church knows full well that all men are sinners in need of God's Divine Help.

What is required by Catholic Priests, Bishops, Parents and even Popes is a degree of understanding of the homosexual condition, so that, pastorally speaking, they can offer spiritual help and guidance to those who have it. And so, Cardinal Ratzinger then says:

“Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder. Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not.”

Priests are called to lead men and women to God, to save souls and to lead them towards Heaven. The Church can never make a moral wrong, namely Sodomy, a moral 'right'. This would be a diabolical lie that would lead souls into Hell.

The homosexual's sexual orientation makes no difference to the State of Grace conferred upon him by God, through Baptism. Mortal sin, and the act of homosexuality is one of them, deprives the sinner of the State of Grace and merits Eternal Punishment. In order for the sinner to be reconciled to God, he should go to Confession, so that he may receive the Holy of Holies, the Most Holy Eucharist, worthily.

What does the then Cardinal mean by 'pastoral attention'?

Well, it means that Priests should show these souls the great mercy of Christ in the Confessional. Through the Sacrament of Confession, sins, mortal and venial are forgiven and healed.

The homosexual finds himself in a supreme opportunity to embrace Jesus Christ wholly for He is the Man in whom true Happiness is found. The Priest should encourage devotion to the Blessed Sacrament and to Our Blessed Lady and the unfailing help of the Saints.

Satan loves to see a soul in despair, since it is then that the soul loses Hope. That is why it is important that Priests and parents show great compassion to those who have this condition.

The Lord, much to the great misunderstanding of such conditions even at times within the Church, does not so much take the condition away from the soul (even with the tears, anguish and pleading many offer up in their shame), but instead embraces the soul to Himself. We are all walking through the valley of death, but Jesus is the Good Shepherd who guides us gently, safely home.

Even practically speaking, how can the Church possibly encourage anything but chastity for the homosexual when rates of HIV/AIDs within the community are so high? It would be reckless and lamentable. What the Church condemns is homosexual acts, not the orientation itself.

The Holy Father stressed time and time again while he was here that we should desire to seek the Truth in Charity as Cardinal Newman did. He offered him to us as an example of Christian heroism. Not only does he offer us a model of concern for the poor, pastoral love and devotion to God, but also a model of chaste, holy friendship and love.

Just for the record, right now I feel suicidal. I'm 32, unemployed, my car's just been impounded, I can't afford to get it back and I'm bankrupt. If ever there was a time for St Jude, Patron Saint of Lost Causes...it is now.

Surely, this is the kind of response the Bishops of England and Wales would have given, apart from the end bit about going bankrupt and losing your car...right...Austen?

I had a job interview this morning as a bar assistant. I was asked, "What do you think is involved in making the perfect gin and tonic?"

I said, "You get a glass, then you take a shot of gin. Then, you go over to the fridge and get some tonic. You open the tonic with a bottle opener and pour the tonic in. Then you ask if the customer would like ice and lemon..."

Was that the wrong answer?


Faith said…
You are also 32, talented, free to be open to various opportunities, healthy enough to walk where needed and much beloved by God.
There is a career in walking?
Chris H said…
Amazing response to Stephen's post on the Telegraph, and a nice explanation to the RC church's teaching on such matters.
Patricius said…
"There is a career in walking?"

Possibly- but Pedestrianism isn't what it was at the end of the 19th century!
Anonymous said…
What a great response to Stephen Hough's article. I have struggled to put the church's position on homosexuality into words, but you have summed it up perfectly. You may not have a job, but you certainly are a talented writer.
What a pity that pastoral care for homosexuals in this country is focussed on the Soho Masses, which encourage people to continue in sin rather than to seek the truth of God's love. God bless you, and I hope you get a job soon. St Jude is powerful, there is also St Rita.

I have in my possession a far better response, Rita, but my plane requires some 'clearance' before take off. The response it down to the intercession of St Jude.
Fr. Stephen Brown said…
Laurence! whatever else you have up your sleeve, the article you've printed is just very very good - offering real hope to people carrying the Cross of a homosexual orientation. Embracing the Cross of Christ hurts but it heals and brings peace. I'll offer Mass for you this evening.
Excellent post! Veritas et caritas...
Baron Korf said…
Well according to a quick google search, the trick is to use tonic from a fresh bottle rather than from tap. So I'd say your answer would be correct.

Oh, good article as well.
Thomas said…
A very good post - I went over and recommended it. It's a great shame that there aren't more resources for young Catholics in this situation, given the state of the culture; have you thought about putting together some online resources (to host at your blog, perhaps) addressed to Catholics in this situation? Eve Tushnet has written some good things, but otherwise, there's not much out there. The dissenters seem to have much slicker materials than the groups like Courage.

More importantly, I hope your present difficulties pass, and will make your peace of mind, and finding work, my rosary intention for today. If money's running low, would setting up a PayPal account or something of that sort, so that people can donate, work? A lot of Catholic blogs I read have a "donate" button.

Excellent redesign, by the way.
shadowlands said…
Patricuis said

Very thoughtful post Laurence.

Another blogger today, over at http://cheekypinkgirl.blogspot.com/2010/09/just-what-i-needed.html mentioned a book that she is reading called:

Sexual Authenticity: An Intimate Reflection on Homosexuality and Catholicism by Melinda Selmys.

She included this quote from the book:

"Too often, Christians writing about homosexuality start their research at the NARTH Web site and end it with the Vatican's 'On the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.' Then they rummage around at PFLAG trying to fish up some incriminating quotes to demonstrate their points. The result is writing that is extremely convincing to the 'choir' and absolutely inaccessible to everyone else."

The blog owner is full of praise for the book, it might be worth a gander for Catholics in general.
Anonymous said…
Was that the wrong answer?

Well, I take lime in mine.

But the rest of the post is excellent.

shadowlands said…
sorry, I forgot half of my comment...

Patricius said:

'but Pedestrianism isn't what it was at the end of the 19th century!'

It is with the right boots!!
Greg said…
Just on the last point, you could have bamboozled your interviewer by talking of Perfect Gin and Tonics: http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html

But that aside, the best answer would usually involve lime rather than lemon. If you're doing it well you actually run the lime around the rim of the glass before adding the tonic. And the tonic should be freshly opened, thus as fizzy as can be. And I'm pretty sure ice is taken as read. It is about the perfect gin and tonic, by the way, not about what the customer wants.

Good answer to the Hough column, btw.
bleusmon said…
Excellent post.

You may want to read and comment on this recent article: "Homosexuality: A Special Call to the Love of God and Man" by Dr. Jeff Mirus, found here: http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?ID=460.

Apparantly the piece triggered some misunderstandings, so he penned a follow-up: "A Call Misunderstood", found here: http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=705.

I'd be interested in your reaction to Dr. Mirus' ideas.

God bless your writing efforts and your personal struggles to live by Church teaching. It can be tough sometimes, but fortunately surrender is liberating.

Phil Steinacker
Margaret said…
Laurence, have you ever considered being an RE teacher. I'm the mother of 5 children aged between 24 and 15 and speak from experience when I say that there is a dire shortage of teachers with your understanding orthodox Catholicism and the willingness to challenge 'aggressive secularism'. You would be a huge asset to any Catholic school.
Patricius said…

"Pedestrianism was a 19th-century form of competitive walking" (Wikipedia)
shadowlands said…

I thought it was a very clever word that you had made up!!

I can't help but be reminded of Norman Wisdom in his film where he walks (or tries to) to Brighton, where he wants to see the sea!! (One Good Turn)


Bravo! That was a really excellent response. The truth that sets us free also binds us.
Honesty is critical. Thank you for being willing to be honest about the truth of your own experience. Who can argue with that or shout you down?
I have noticed in the comments elsewhere that you sometimes take heat for this.
God bless you because you experience every day the reality of what it means to die to self.

And by the way, if you were to ask me what was involved in making the perfect gin and tonic, I would say it would have to be the one that was handed to me by someone wearing soft shoes who retreated noiselessly and left me to my thoughts in a darkened room.
( But I speak as one whose nerves are slightly jangled at the moment by the effect of toys on wooden floors, and some extremely chatty children.)
I'll be praying for your employment/financial situation to improve.
And by the way, I heartily second Margarets suggestion.
My last experience training to be a teacher was abysmal. They were climbing up the walls and I got booted out after just 4 months.
Catholic Mediator said…
I'm not sure the church does teach that homosexuality is a moral disorder, this is what Cardinal Hime had to say...

"The particular orientation or inclination of the homosexual person is not a moral failing...Being a homosexual person is, then, neither morally good nor morally bad; it is homosexual genital acts that are morally wrong" (p. 134).
Catholic scientist said…
The church teaches that homosexuality is an objective disorder... BUT how is it objectively wrong? They don't cite any evidence. Surely they believe it's wrong but that is a subjective interpretation.
Because the natural order is for mutual attraction between man and woman, thereby creating the conditions for new life.
Catholic scientist said…
So following on from that, sexual relations between heterosexual couples not able to create life (eg infertility, old age, physical disability etc) are also objectively disordered?
No. Homosexuality is a disorder of the natural sexual state.

Heterosexuality is natural, normal, ordered, whatever you want to call it.

It's a fallen World, hence we have a World in which both sexualities co-exist.

Oh, and by the way, if homosexuality is so 'normal' then why do people commit suicide over it? Could it be that they feel shame, guilt and despair over the fact that their sexuality is not 'normal'?

That's just a reaction to what 'society' has told them, right, even though homosexuality is in the newspapers, mags, internet and TV and everywhere thanks to the gay lobby?

No, its an internal crisis of the heart and the soul and the journalist was right to point out that its a heartbreaker and cause of suicide. That is why it requires great love, understanding and compassion from parents and pastors.
Juvenile comments from people who don't know me will not be published.

You don't know me and you can keep your opinions about my relationship to yourself.

Take your 'hate campaign' elsewhere. If you don't understand my situation, as a gay man, then just accept you don't understand it. I for my part have been honest with you. If you don't understand it, then I would posit that it is you, rather than I who has not yet fully lived the 'gay experience'.

My current relationship is built upon love and grounded in deep friendship. Try a relationship of love, grounded in deep friendship yourself one day. You might quite enjoy it.
catholic scientist said…
No, gay teenagers commit suicide because they are afraid to 'come out', afraid of facing the anti-gay rhetoric and abuse, afraid that they will be ridiculed and ostacised by their family and friends and people they don't even know. They commit suicide because they believe what they hear about gay peole not being normal, being 'disordered' and 'evil', because they are made to feel abnormal, because by trying to keep their feelings secret they are isolated and fall into depression and despair. They commit suicide because they are taunted at school and on the streets. They commit suicide because even though they try to be something they are not, try to find the female sex sexually attractive, they can't deny the feelings of who and what they really are and that god made them that way.

This is what the scientific literature tells us, not the twisted unchristian and hateful account that you try to portray. Teenagers who are comfortable with who they are and accept their sexuality, don't commit suicide.
catholic therapist said…
My comment wasn't juvenile, it was thoughtful and thought provoking; and it wasn't disrespectful, it was challenging and questioning. It's a pity you couldn't bear to publish it. You are the one that keeps posting about being a gay man trying to develop a relationship with a woman so you can't really complain when people comment on this unusual situation. If you don't want people to comment on your relationship then stop posting about it.
Catholic medic said…
The teenager in the Indiana case you cite, committed suicide due to bullying because he was gay NOT because he was gay per se.

Stop the bullying (unjust persecution and discrimination) and he wouldn't have felt so awful that he took his life. Your advice does nothing to help young people like this poor guy, in fact you do the opposite by giving justification to those who bully. You are complicit in this por guy's death.
...uh-huh...and all of the bullies were referencing Church teaching.

Yeah right!
Dear Catholic therapist

You can shoot as many arrows my way as you like...

I'll do my St Sebastian impression, but you won't see the arrows hit by being published on this blog.

Eventually, you'll leave because you'll realise that if you want to get in touch and send me hate mail you've got my email in the side bar.

But then, you don't have the bravery to reveal YOUR identity.
'This is what the scientific literature tells us, not the twisted unchristian and hateful account that you try to portray. Teenagers who are comfortable with who they are and accept their sexuality, don't commit suicide.'


Come to Brighton then. We're not the drug death capital of the UK AND the gay capital of the UK for no reason.
Catholic drug worker said…
Young people heterosexual and homosexual commonly take recreational drugs... It's not just associated with gay sexualities.
Cathic apologist said…
People commit suicide for lots of reasons, sexually related or not. Lots of straight people commit suicide too, sometimes related to aspects of their sexuality or related to sexual experiences. Young men commit suicide at a higher rate than the general population - including heterosexual young men - but you aren't blaming that on their heterosexuality. Yes, young gay men also have a higher suicide rate but because of the social exclusion they experience not because they are gay per se. Young gay men who don't come out are at higher risk of suicide than those who do. There is no scientific evidence to support your claim, in fact the literature demonstrates the opposite quite conclusively. The suicide rate among gay people has been decreasing since improved legal and social rights policies have been introduced. If what you say is right then why isn't the suicide rate higher among lesbians also.
Catholic therapist said…
I'm a chartered clinical psychologist actually and I specialise in sexual health (among other things). I have published research and papers in the area of HIV prevention and also sexuality related Issues.

I am also a practising catholic.

I do not wish to give my name because of the hateful nature of the uber-tradosphere, and I don't see why I should seeing as many other people here don't.
Cathic nurse said…
It takes more than mutual attraction between a man and a woman to create new life. In fact new life can be created without mutual attraction.
Anti lawrence said…
If it's bullshit, cite the evidence otherwise. Stop trying to be an expert about things you know nothing about. What I said stands, young gay people who are comfortable with their sexuality and are well supported, generally don't commit suicide. It's the ones who believe the crap people like you spout that are more likely to. Your nasty comments and scientifically incorrect postings contribute to these people's misery. You have blood on your hands Judas.
So I go public and receive your criticism.

You go undercover, criticise and nobody knows who the **** you are.

"Oh no! What if Traditionalists find out my name! I don't want puppies through the postbox!"

You're a coward! Nobody knows squat about you, yet you surmise you can know whether I am happy, or not.

Unless you knew me from personal experience, you can't say. Don't make crude assumptions about what makes people happy, Bro.

People have had my email for ages and I don't ever get hate mail.

Catholic Nurse

The point is that two men can't do it. They can only get them off Social Services after they've stolen babies of the Poor.

Catholic apologist

What we're talking about here is the Church's response to homosexuality, not society's. The comment I made was on the pastoral concern for the homosexual. The Church desires to see the Eternal Salvation of every man, regardless of his or her sexuality. The Church's response to homosexuality has to reflect the desire to save souls.

That means care for those at risk of suicide and care for those at risk of beginning a lifestyle which could lead to Eternal Damnation. Because She cares, the Church warns us.
gay people deserve respect said…
you have no pastoral concern for homosexual persons, you only seek to ridicule and castigate them and present them as stero-types rather than acknowledging their dignity as persons.
if you had pastoral concern for these people, you would be a lot more cautious about the things you say and how you say them.
you're a bleeding hypocrite.
catholic theologian said…
The 'natural order' is a circular argument and not very convincing. Many, if not most, respected theologians are very critical of the natural order arguments (including the early Ratzinger).

The Vatican's own biblical commission also issued a report that there was no biblical argument against homosexual activity but it was suppressed (at least for the time being). This issue won't go away and there are subtle signs that the church's stance is being nuanced. It's only a matter of time. The traditionalists know it hence their counter resistance.
catholic parent said…
You'd make a crap teacher Lawrence, you're far too judgemental. Thank God the screening process is working properly. We need to protect our children from bitter and twisted people like you.
I don't know how you can say that gpdrs,

I am gay person, I respect my dignity and the dignity of gays. Of course we can demean our dignity through sin, if we choose, but God can restore that Dignity and clothe us in His glory.

The Church preaches the Salvation of God. The disposition is unfortunate, but God brings forth Good from every misfortune.

It is the same for all sinners. What the Church can't do is to lead sinners into sin. Because the Church is Holy, She leads all sinners to repentance.
catholic parking warden said…
One wonders if the whole purpose of this posting was to evoke people into feeling sorry for you so someone would pay for your car to be released (which some daft fools did). Don't leave your car parked where it shouldn't and it won't get tocketed, clamped and towed away.
unchristian gay said…
What about gay people who aren't catholic / christian then? Are they also to distract themselves by praying to the Blessed sacrement and Our Lady? What avice can you give them O Supreme Lawrence who knowest all?
catholic agony aunt said…
O Lawrence you are such a superior gay because you deny who and what you are. Everyone must be like you otherwise they're just so very stupid. Funny how most other gay people are reasonably happy and well adjusted whereas you're depressed and a loser. Why would anyone follow your advice and example? Do the opposite, I say!!!
I am what Holy Mother Church teaches I am...a poor sinner.
Anti-Lawrence said…
You still haven't cited any hard evidence for your claims yet...
american catholic said…
"We call on all Christians and citizens of good will to confront their own fears about homosexuality and to curb the humor and discrimination that offend homosexual persons. We understand that having a homosexual orientation brings with it enough anxiety, pain and issues related to self-acceptance without society adding additional prejudicial treatment" (American Bishops Conference: Human Sexuality, #55).
catholic therapist said…
''My current relationship is built upon love and grounded in deep friendship''

Your current relationship is built on a LIE.
catholic biologist said…
''No. Homosexuality is a disorder of the natural sexual state.''

Homosexuality occours within most, if not all, mammals... therefore it seems quite natural to me. Why would create something innate in people or animals which is wrong?

Can you prove it's a disorder of the natural sexual state, oh no you can't. We're just meant to take your word for it. Silly me!
Faithless said…
''You are also 32, talented, free to be open to various opportunities, healthy enough to walk where needed and much beloved by God.''

To the contary: You are 32, untalented, closed to various opportunities, healthy enough to walk where needed (except you use your car even though you can't afford one) and (although he loves you) wishes you would accept yourself as he made you rather than trying to be something you are not.
catholic left-hander said…
Oh yes the church's teaching on homosexuality...

it's ok being left-handed as long as you don't use your left hand.
catholic reporter said…
I noticed you did not publish my comment about the murder of the young Mathew Shephard who was killed by evangelical christians citing the bible in support of their hideous crime.

Your disgusting comments given credence and credibility to such sick individuals.
bishops teaching said…
In July of 1998 a revised version of Always Our Children was reissued, now with Vatican support. The changes and refinements, while relatively minor, did serve to better nuance and clarify those points considered too vague or unclear. The stated purpose of the document is "to reach out to parents who are trying to cope with the discovery of homosexuality in a child who is an adolescent or an adult." It encourages families to draw on their untapped reserves of faith, hope and love, as they together face "uncharted futures." Drawing on all the same Catholic sources cited in this Update, the bishops of the Marriage and Family Life Committee want to encourage parents and families to accept, love and walk together with their gay son or lesbian daughter.

Their pastoral concern is prompted, in part, by the growing sociological literature linking many male teen suicides to the discovery that the boy has a homosexual orientation, with a subsequent presumption that his family would shun or disown him. Often the teen feels that his parents would rather discover that he is dead than have to cope with the fact that his orientation is homosexual.

So also, far too many young gay men and lesbian women attempt heterosexual marriage, in an effort to "turn themselves around" or to "hide" their orientation within a socially accepted marriage covenant. If not dealt with up front, during puberty and adolescence, such repressed orientation issues often lie dormant for years, but not for a lifetime. Discovering—at age 30, 40 or 50—that one’s spouse, the father or mother of one’s children, is primarily homosexual and wants out of the marriage is a devastating blow. Was the whole marriage a lie? Should we stick with it for the sake of the children? If teens are allowed to deal more openly with their sexual feelings, fantasies and orientation at an appropriate age and in responsible counseling and educational settings, such later tragedies may be avoided.
Know your moral compass.. said…
1. Do you think God is pleased to see two men or two women having asexual Relations?

2. Do you think anything good comes out of a gay life style?

3. Is homosexual environment healthy for society?

4. Is it healthy for normal children to be taught about homosexuality in schools?

5. Is it healthy for normal children to have gay friends?

6. Is it healthy for your children to see you with gay friends?

7. Is it healthy for normal children to see adults watching pro gay shows on TV?

8. Is it healthy to teach normal children to accept and respect homosexuals?

9. Would you send your normal child to a gay home to play with other children?

10. Are you intimidated by homosexuals?

If you answered Yes to any of the above questions then you need to re-examine your moral compass.
The evidence said…
In a review of published studies comparing homosexual and heterosexual samples on psychological tests, Gonsiorek (1982) found that, although some differences have been observed in test results between homosexuals and heterosexuals, both groups consistently score within the normal range. Gonsiorek concluded that "Homosexuality in and of itself is unrelated to psychological disturbance or maladjustment. Homosexuals as a group are not more psychologically disturbed on account of their homosexuality" (Gonsiorek, 1982, p. 74; see also reviews by Gonsiorek, 1991; Hart, Roback, Tittler, Weitz, Walston & McKee, 1978; Riess, 1980).
Confronted with overwhelming empirical evidence and changing cultural views of homosexuality, psychiatrists and psychologists radically altered their views, beginning in the 1970s.
Gloria said…
Stop projecting your own mental difficulties onto others Lawrence. It's not very charitable.
Faith said…
Let me refer you to http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0001.html

No it isn't.

We're both aware of the situation.

You're just jealous!
1. Do you think God is pleased to see two men or two women having asexual Relations?

That really depends on the circumstances. Isn't that what most friendships are? Sex is for marriage.

2. Do you think anything good comes out of a gay life style?

No, not really.

3. Is homosexual environment healthy for society?


4. Is it healthy for normal children to be taught about homosexuality in schools?


5. Is it healthy for normal children to have gay friends?

Children? I don't think that it is really an issue for children.

6. Is it healthy for your children to see you with gay friends?

Why tell the children?

7. Is it healthy for normal children to see adults watching pro gay shows on TV?

What? Graham Norton? No.

8. Is it healthy to teach normal children to accept and respect homosexuals?

Don't teach children about homosexuality. Let them have their innocence.

9. Would you send your normal child to a gay home to play with other children?

No. What is a gay home?

10. Are you intimidated by homosexuals?

If you're a Catholic and you don't agree with the Catechism of the Catholic Church are you really a Catholic?
catholic therapist said…
I'm in a long-term relationship with a loving partner. Why would I be jealous of your pretend non-relationship?
It isn't my relationship you are jealous of.

It's my faith.
Catholic Parent, Doctor, Brainsurgeon etc

I've woken up this morning and I have about 10 or 11 comments from you. I'm not publishing any of them. It is very easy and cowardly to make personal attacks under anonymity. I invite you to send me an email, it is on the side bar and we'll talk through your concerns.

I understand that you feel that this blog post was derogatory towards homosexuals, when, in fact, it is simple Church teaching.

I agree with you, that I shouldn't publish comments which call homosexuality a 'disease'. It isn't - it is a condition. There is a difference, but I have more, in this thread, sympathy for those who are fed up with having the homosexual cause rammed down their throats, at the expense of even the innocence of children.

However, on the whole, while it saddens you, upsets you or angers you that I don't believe in gay liberation theology, nor have I chosen to embrace the lifestyle (though we all have a past), I don't believe that that choice warrants your constant criticism and depiction of me as a 'self-hating gay' because, I assure you, I don't hate me half as much as you do.

How you choose to live is between you, your Maker, Redeemer and Judge and I don't, for one, judge you. Why then, attack me for how I choose to live? Why is my choice a threat to you?

My current relationship is a great blessing from the Lord and I have found a joy and happiness that has hitherto eluded me, whether those relationships were with men or women. If it were not so, I would not be committed to the life-long commitment of Marriage.

What I take exception to is being attacked for simply defending Church Teaching, as if Church Teaching on sexuality is somehow aimed at stigmatising homosexuals.

This is simply not true. This is a World of moral disorders, a fallen World in which you will be hard pushed to find anyone with a few moral disorders, myself included.

We look at this issue in different lights. You look at it ideologically, I look at it through the lens of the Church, our Mother, whose Infallible Teaching cannot err.

The Lord has shown me a Path in life. He has given me someone wonderful to walk down that Path with. The fact that that person is female may anger you, it may shock you, or it may make you think I'm mad, but that really is your problem, not mine.

And so, for the sake of our relationship, I would urge you to email me, rather than attempt to attack our relationship on this blog since, in all honesty, it really isn't on.
catholic said…
I don't want to email you or enter into an email 'relationship' with you. I simply wish to publically contest the comments and incorrect 'facts' you assert publically on your blog.

I am not an ideologue, I'm much more impartial about the scientific evidence than you are.

You are right that sexuality is not a disease, but neither is it a condition. In what sense do you believe it is a condition?

I thought you were a robust enough to withstand strong criticsm but obviously you're not. Maybe you are in fact a lesbian because you certanly aren't a man in any sense of the word.
'I don't want to email you or enter into an email 'relationship' with you. I simply wish to publically contest the comments and incorrect 'facts' you assert publically on your blog.'

This is not a science blog, Catholic. This is a Catholic blog. Scientific/psychological studies can give us interesting clues as to why homosexuality exists, but do not lead us into salvation. Interesting, sure, but in the Church, what is preached is Sin and Salvation.

All that I re-presented in the original post, is a re-presentation of Catholic doctrine. You'd be as unhappy reading the Catechism as you would reading that blog post.

'I am not an ideologue, I'm much more impartial about the scientific evidence than you are.'

No, I don't believe that. You believe that human experience trumps Truth. In other words, because you believe that homosexual attraction feels 'natural' that it is, in fact, part and parcel of the natural order. That isn't what the Church teaches.

The Church teaches that it is a condition which affects a number of men and women, the number of which is 'not neglible'. The Church encourages these men and women towards chastity and that there is no reason why we cannot achieve 'Christian perfection'.

'You are right that sexuality is not a disease, but neither is it a condition. In what sense do you believe it is a condition?'

I believe that it is a condition in as much as we find ourselves with an attraction to members of our own sex which does not lead to going forth and multiplying. If we act upon it we are merely going forth and mortally sinning.

'I thought you were a robust enough to withstand strong criticsm but obviously you're not. Maybe you are in fact a lesbian because you certanly aren't a man in any sense of the word.'

Well, it just strkes me as terribly unfair that I can be honest, leave myself (and by default, my fiancee) exposed to rather nasty personal attacks, whereas you can pull on a balaclaver and nobody knows who you are.

Over time it has become more obvious that you cannot consider my blogposts without getting personal and assuming a lot of things about me for which you've no 'evidence'.

You've said things to me you'd never have the balls to say in person. It is cowardly, so please don't say I'm the one who's not man enough for a verbal jousting competition.
Catholic antagonist said…
Actually, I wouldn't have any problem saying these things to you in person, in fact I'd rather face you and your despicable views down that way. It's a shame I can't because I live far away from Brighton. Maybe one day we will get the chance.
Maybe one day, you'll get off your Peter Tatchell podium and just be glad that some people have found happiness and you won't be embittered against them for not living according to your prejudices.
Catholic realist said…
''Maybe one day, you'll get off your Peter Tatchell podium and just be glad that some people have found happiness and you won't be embittered against them for not living according to your prejudices.''

I tell you what Lawrence, I'll leave you alone when you get ff your uber catholic podium and just be glad that most gay people are happy as they are and have found happiness and won't be emittered by your prejudices if you just let them lives their lives as they see fit.

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